Vatican Hands SSPX Doctrinal Statement for Assent

Vatican Hands SSPX Doctrinal Statement for Assent The document given to Bishop Fellay to sign "states some doctrinal principles and criteria for the interpretation of Catholic doctrine necessary to …More
Vatican Hands SSPX Doctrinal Statement for Assent
The document given to Bishop Fellay to sign "states some doctrinal principles and criteria for the interpretation of Catholic doctrine necessary to guarantee fidelity" to the formal teaching of the church, said a statement issued by the Vatican after the meeting.
At the same time, the statement said, the preamble leaves room for "legitimate discussion" about "individual expressions or formulations present in the documents of the Second Vatican Council and the successive magisterium" of the popes who came after the council.
Father Lombardi would not respond to questions about specific church teachings and developments listed in the preamble, but said church tradition always has held there are varying degrees of church teaching; some require an absolute assent while others are open to interpretation. …
Bishop Fellay had said his society went into the talks aiming to show the contradictions between the church's traditional teachings and its …More
ACLumsden
SBpfu - Absolutely that man! 🙂
holyrope 3
Yes, such thing! There are parishes who say Only the novus ordo mass..and which Most Refuse the ancient, Latin (extraordinary) Mass out of disobedience to the Holy Father, amongst so many other things!
www.latinmasstimes.comMore
Yes, such thing! There are parishes who say Only the novus ordo mass..and which Most Refuse the ancient, Latin (extraordinary) Mass out of disobedience to the Holy Father, amongst so many other things!

www.latinmasstimes.com
holyrope 3
We must pray for those priests in the novus ordo parishes who continue in their disobedient obstinace to try to refuse the faithful communion because they are on their knees and or because they wish to receive on the tongue. And also the abuse of priests in the novus ordo modern churches who sit up in the sanctuary while the lay distributors are giving out communion.
We must pray that the priest …More
We must pray for those priests in the novus ordo parishes who continue in their disobedient obstinace to try to refuse the faithful communion because they are on their knees and or because they wish to receive on the tongue. And also the abuse of priests in the novus ordo modern churches who sit up in the sanctuary while the lay distributors are giving out communion.
We must pray that the priest TRULY believe in the real presence and not just simbollicly. We need to pray for priests who dress as a lay person with disregard for the religious garb he took upon his ordination. We also must pray for the novus ordo priests who choose to pick their own words for the consecration of the bread and wine, disregarding all rubrics, therefore making the mass invalid. The list is too long........... 🙏
ACLumsden
@SBpfu - To be sure! 🤗 😇
ACLumsden
Ok SBpfu, let us agree to disagree. 😇 🤗
One more comment from ACLumsden
ACLumsden
LOL! SBpfu - leave your prejudices aside brother and look only at the development of music. This is where I am coming from. Music is music, beauty is beauty - wheresoever it is from. Just look at our easter rituals, once pegan, now Christian. We take that which is past and renew it, make it holy for and through Christ. To stick with modal chant in Latin is tantmount as saying Latin is the 'sacred'…More
LOL! SBpfu - leave your prejudices aside brother and look only at the development of music. This is where I am coming from. Music is music, beauty is beauty - wheresoever it is from. Just look at our easter rituals, once pegan, now Christian. We take that which is past and renew it, make it holy for and through Christ. To stick with modal chant in Latin is tantmount as saying Latin is the 'sacred' language of the West, no music can occur save for the use of Latin text. Of course we have rejected the "Latin, the sacred language of the West" idea.

Therefore, while i do uphold the primacy of the Church's requirements regarding the Sacred Liturgy (OF and EF), I think that composers composing in the vernacular is nothing new. Just consider the monks in the middle ages composing in the vernacular, e.g. Codex Engelberg 314 "lobt all zungen" of the XIIc. In GERMAN!

I do not agree that composers ought to be arrested with the Latin language. Since Holy Mother Church offers the vernacular "for the benefit of the faithful".

🤗 😇
Simple but orthodox Catholic
Sbpfu, I am really appreciative of the fact that we can disagree without resorting to offensive language. It would be an understatement to say that I don't know as much as I should about liturgical music and so on. I am, therefore, learning a lot from reading what you and ACL are posting. And I thank both of you! I still find myself, however, disagreeing with you on two points. One is terminology.…More
Sbpfu, I am really appreciative of the fact that we can disagree without resorting to offensive language. It would be an understatement to say that I don't know as much as I should about liturgical music and so on. I am, therefore, learning a lot from reading what you and ACL are posting. And I thank both of you! I still find myself, however, disagreeing with you on two points. One is terminology. There is really no such thing as the Roman Catholic Church. In that sense, "Roman" was a construct of High Anglicanism in the past to sustain the fiction that there were "several" branches of the Catholic Church. On one side was the "Roman", on the onother was the "Eastern or Greek" and in the middle, the so called "Via Media", was the Anglican. In the Creed we believe in "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" because there is only one Catholic Church under one Supreme Pontiff, the Pope, but this One Catholic Church has several rites. The Latin Rite is by far the biggest but by no means the only one nor the normative. Hence, even if Latin is the "official language" of the Latin Rite it is not the Official Language of the Catholic Church. That is why at the most solemn of Papal Masses the Holy Gospel is also sung in Greek. It emphasises the fact that the Catholic Church is more than just the Latin or Western part of it. The second point over which I would disagree with you is that I really do believe that it does not really matter what language we use in worshiping God [provided, naturally and fundamentally, that the FORM of the worship is orthodox - and the Novo Ordo IS orthodox].
May God continue to bless you, Sbpfu, and may you continue to post on this site so that all of us can learn more. You too ACL!
Christus vincit Christus regnat Christus imperat
Viva il Papa!
ACLumsden
Sigh... SBpfu - The fact that Latin is the official language of the Roman Church is not in debate with me, you know I love our Latin tradition. Re-read my post. I am only trying to show that the MODAL CHANT pre-dates the use of Latin, Greek and even, in some cases, Syriac. Therefore it is possible to have MODAL CHANT in the vernacular - in ANY language.
On the other hand, I am NOT saying that the …More
Sigh... SBpfu - The fact that Latin is the official language of the Roman Church is not in debate with me, you know I love our Latin tradition. Re-read my post. I am only trying to show that the MODAL CHANT pre-dates the use of Latin, Greek and even, in some cases, Syriac. Therefore it is possible to have MODAL CHANT in the vernacular - in ANY language.

On the other hand, I am NOT saying that the extant works of Modal Chant be excised because of the linguistic problem. We keep our tradition alive by singing the extant chants, AND modern modal chant compositions in the vernacular - tis the same modes and techniques of the ancients, just in the vernacular.

I do not want to join the debate between you and Simple.... My purport here is to show that modal chant is not off limits to modern composers. The tradition can continue out of the old: by singing and keeping alive the ancient Latin Chants, composers can begin, yet again, to compose in this vein, now inthe vernacular - just like when things moved from Hebrew to Greek and from Greek to Latin.

Regarding polyphony: Sir John Tavener and Avo Part have sufficiently shown that modern polyphony can offer an equal beauty to the liturgy
as say, Palestrina and Byrd (all things being equal). Whether in the vernacular or not, it is the musical form of the renaissance which matters, not the language. Now, translating a piece of Palestrina into english is obviously obscene and should be a sin! But this does not prevent good and gifted modern composers composing in the vernacular things of equal beauty (just look at the vernacular motets of Tallis and Byrd at the court of EI).

😇 🤗
ACLumsden
@SBpfu - greetings that man! 🤗 Prior to Latin the Church used Greek. The Latin used by the church is a simplified version aimed at the people; so that the people can understand. Who in the pews today can understand Latin (except a classicist)? The fallacy which many traditionalists perpetuate is that the music and the language are inseparable.
Did you know that before the use of Latin, the chants …More
@SBpfu - greetings that man! 🤗 Prior to Latin the Church used Greek. The Latin used by the church is a simplified version aimed at the people; so that the people can understand. Who in the pews today can understand Latin (except a classicist)? The fallacy which many traditionalists perpetuate is that the music and the language are inseparable.

Did you know that before the use of Latin, the chants were in Greek? Many still exist today in the Eastern Church and in the Greek-speaking parts of Calabria (where they speak an ancient Greek dialect). For example, the introit for the Christmas midnight Mass was first in Syriac, then in Greek, now in Latin. We know this from the anotations in the Beneventuran manuscript of the VIIIc. As the language changed so did the elaborate melismas of the chant until it was reduced to its most simple musical form, viz. the Latin "Dixit Dominus" in mode II.

Language is NOT important for the preservation of the Modal Chant - as the history of the Chants show. What IS important is the skilfull translation of the music to fit the language, whatever that maybe.

When I referenced the High C of E, my purport was to demonstrate that IT IS possible to have the Modal Chant without the Latin; not to suggest that the 'substance' of their Mass is the same as a Roman Catholic Mass(do not read into my points things which are not there). After all, the Modal Chant phenomenon predates the use of Latin and even Greek! (Syriac and ancient Hebrew being two of the originals.)

Just look at the American choir of St Peter's in the Loop of Chicargo, IL. Their use of the Modal Chants IN ENGLISH is simply gorgeous, the use of the English language and the potential of our language is really well demonstrated here. (Whatever the theological situation of that church!)

😇 🤗
Holy Cannoli
Little Aquinas quotes the plagerizer?
hehehehehe
Whoever would make that claim that:
Latin is not the official language of the Catholic Church
does not know what they are talking about.
Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it
Bl John Paul II
👏More
Little Aquinas quotes the plagerizer?
hehehehehe

Whoever would make that claim that:
Latin is not the official language of the Catholic Church
does not know what they are talking about.

Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it
Bl John Paul II

👏
Simple but orthodox Catholic
Gregory — 16/09/2011 01:25:00:
Holy Cannoli, It is a little thing to be judged by you!
@Gregory ... truer words were never spoken!
Christus vincit Christus regnat Christus imperat
Viva il Papa!More
Gregory — 16/09/2011 01:25:00:
Holy Cannoli, It is a little thing to be judged by you!

@Gregory ... truer words were never spoken!
Christus vincit Christus regnat Christus imperat
Viva il Papa!
Holy Cannoli
Stay on point, Aquinas.
Whoever would make that claim that:
Latin is not the official language of the Catholic Church
does not know what they are talking about.
😀 😁 🚬More
Stay on point, Aquinas.

Whoever would make that claim that:

Latin is not the official language of the Catholic Church

does not know what they are talking about.

😀 😁 🚬
Simple but orthodox Catholic
Whether people like it or not, Latin is not the only liturgical language of the Universal Catholic Church ... and using childishly offensive words won't make it so.
Christus vincit Christus regnat Christus imperat
Viva il Papa!
Holy Cannoli
Whoever would make that claim that:
Latin is not the official language of the Catholic Church
does not know what they are talking about.
You give the impression that you're quite young and ill-informed which would explain your naïveté. Are you over fourteen?
😲More
Whoever would make that claim that:

Latin is not the official language of the Catholic Church

does not know what they are talking about.

You give the impression that you're quite young and ill-informed which would explain your naïveté. Are you over fourteen?

😲
Simple but orthodox Catholic
www.google.com/search
Ecclesiastical Latin (sometimes called Liturgical or Church Latin) is the Latin used by the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church in all periods for ecclesiastical purposes. Having developed as a style of Late Latin called sermo humilis, used to preach and otherwise communicate to the people in ordinary language, it can be distinguished from Classical Latin by some lexical …More
www.google.com/search
Ecclesiastical Latin (sometimes called Liturgical or Church Latin) is the Latin used by the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church in all periods for ecclesiastical purposes. Having developed as a style of Late Latin called sermo humilis, used to preach and otherwise communicate to the people in ordinary language, it can be distinguished from Classical Latin by some lexical variations, a simplified syntax in some cases, and, commonly, in modern times, an Italianate pronunciation. It appears in various contexts, including theological works, liturgical rites, and dogmatic proclamations, and in various styles: as syntactically simple as in the Vulgate, as hieratic as in the Roman Canon of the Mass, as terse and technical as the language of Aquinas' Summa Theologica, and as Ciceronian as in Pope John Paul II's encyclical letter Fides et Ratio. In late antiquity and in the Low Middle Ages the intended audience or use determined the style the ecclesiastical writer employed; in modern times it depends on the context. Christian Latin refers to the Latin employed in their preaching and writing by Christians of ancient times.
Holy Cannoli
Latin is not the official language of the Catholic Church.
Nitwit!
www.google.com/search
🤦More
Latin is not the official language of the Catholic Church.

Nitwit!

www.google.com/search

🤦
Simple but orthodox Catholic
With all due respect, SBpfu, I have to disagree with you. Latin is not the official language of the Catholic Church. It USED to be the only LITURGICAL language of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. It now shares that honour with the various vernacular languages of the Western Church. The Catholic Church has many RITES and, therefore, many liturgical languages. One example is the Byzantine Rite …More
With all due respect, SBpfu, I have to disagree with you. Latin is not the official language of the Catholic Church. It USED to be the only LITURGICAL language of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. It now shares that honour with the various vernacular languages of the Western Church. The Catholic Church has many RITES and, therefore, many liturgical languages. One example is the Byzantine Rite which uses Greek as its liturgical language. There are even Rites in full Communion with the Vicar of Christ which worship God in Arabic [and therefore refer to God as "Allah"]. Why are we getting so upset with what language is used to worship God? Did Jesus speak Latin? No. Was the First Holy Mass [the Last Supper] in Latin? No. In what language were the last words of Our Lord and Saviour before he died on the Cross? Latin? No. Jesus and all his disciples spoke Aramaic. The native language of the first Pope was not Latin but Aramaic. In fact in Rome, during the earliest part of the Church's history, the original liturgical language was not even Latin but Greek. This was because the Scriptures of the Early Church were written in the language of the majority of the early Christians, Greek. Latin eventually became the liturgical language of the Western Church exactly because the language of the people in the West was Latin and not Greek. THAT is the point ... the language that was used to worship God was the language spoken by the people. The 21st Oecumenical Council of the Universal Church [Vatican II] meant to return the Western Church to that position. There is nothing naturally or inherently more holy or spiritual about Latin as a liturgical language. Now, if one says that for aesthetic reasons one wants to attend a Mass spoken in Latin ... I can perfectly understand that and totally respect it. Catholics now, thanks to the paternal solicitude of the Supreme Pontiff Pope Benedict XVI, have the perfectly legitimate option of attending a Mass said in the vernacular or in Latin. Please, however, let us not argue that Latin is "the sacred" language and, so, the Mass must be in Latin. Let us not try to second guess Ecumenical Councils of the Church and the Magisterium or try to be more Catholic than the Pope.
Christus vincit Christus regnat Christus imperat
Viva il Papa!
Michel-René Landry
Hy Holyrope 3. I'm with you spiritualy.
Union of prayer.
🙂
Michel-René Landry
I'm sorry but i have to correct my self for some of my rong typing.
Whene i say, "I don't whant to like Lucifer by doing his own will." I ment I don't whant to do like Lucifer by doing his own will. And when i say "I don't whant to like Lucifer by doing his own will. Thate why he fell from the kindom of heaven "PRIDE". So I on my side, will do his will no matter the suffering thate i have to go in …More
I'm sorry but i have to correct my self for some of my rong typing.
Whene i say, "I don't whant to like Lucifer by doing his own will." I ment I don't whant to do like Lucifer by doing his own will. And when i say "I don't whant to like Lucifer by doing his own will. Thate why he fell from the kindom of heaven "PRIDE". So I on my side, will do his will no matter the suffering thate i have to go in." I ment So i on my side, i will do God will no matter the suffering thate i have to go in.

🙂
One more comment from Michel-René Landry
Michel-René Landry
Deer frend "simple but orthodox Catholic". May i ask you why you wrought """Sorry if it upset anyone ... especially Mr Landry!"""?
I didn't even wrought a comment between my comment and yours of me saying thate is upseting me. I Just whant to say thate i'm a nutral persone. I dont mind of the language you speak. You can be Spanish, Germen, Japones or other.... I like people that speak other laguage …More
Deer frend "simple but orthodox Catholic". May i ask you why you wrought """Sorry if it upset anyone ... especially Mr Landry!"""?
I didn't even wrought a comment between my comment and yours of me saying thate is upseting me. I Just whant to say thate i'm a nutral persone. I dont mind of the language you speak. You can be Spanish, Germen, Japones or other.... I like people that speak other laguage it is so interesting.

Union of prayer.
🙂